Hey y'all, welcome to the Song Saloon. This week's guest is Phoenix based singer songwriter Lennon Vanderdose. We actually recorded this episode months ago, and Lennon has been very busy since then.

You may have seen him recently competing on The Voice. Mraz's I Won't Give Up even moved John Legend to tears, which was pretty cool to watch.

It was really fun to see him get the recognition he deserves as a musician and as a great vocalist.

lennon just released a new holiday song called December in Phoenix, so please do make sure to check that out as well. 

Also, if you like this song saloon, would you take a moment to share it with a friend of yours? Maybe someone interested in writing themselves or, someone that's just interested in new music. I'm really grateful to all of you that listen, whether this is your first time, or if you're a return listener.

I really appreciate you and know that it is community that really makes this podcast the best it can be. Currently I host, book the guests, edit the show. I do all of that myself and it's a lot of work, but very rewarding and I love it. And I want to be able to dedicate the time it takes to make it special.

 So to do that, I need to be able to grow this community. So really appreciate you sharing the show and your feedback. So shoot me a message and let me know how it's going. What would you like to see? Uh, What kind of artists do you want on here? How would you like these interviews structured? Any questions that you feel like I'm missing in these opportunities?

Would love to hear all of it. Anyway, this is a great episode. I was excited to sit down with Lennon and talk about his song, Gold. So, on to the episode. Hope you enjoy it.

[00:01:30] Lennon Vanderdoes: Hey Jordan. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:34] Jordan Smith Reynolds: yeah, thanks for being on the show. How you doing today? 

[00:01:37] Lennon Vanderdoes: Living the dream, man. Living the 

[00:01:40] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Living the

dream, 

writing the songs. Performing the songs. 

[00:01:43] Lennon Vanderdoes: Yeah.

[00:01:44] Jordan Smith Reynolds: That's great. 

So we're talking about your song Gold today.

Can you tell us a little bit about the track? 

[00:01:50] Lennon Vanderdoes: Okay. Yeah. 

Back in the beginning of 2020, like before all the, everything went down 2020. Basically I had just gotten divorced. I was married really quick. You know, it's, I grew up Mormon, so that's something that you do.

You get married quick sometimes without knowing the person that you're marrying. You know, a lot of people like me, I'm sure. And, uh, married quick and divorced quick. So it was within kind of a year. And even going through that, I was definitely relieved. So that's kind of 

where the songs, oh, I was 23.

[00:02:25] Jordan Smith Reynolds: 23. 

[00:02:26] Lennon Vanderdoes: so 22 married, or maybe it was like 23 married, 24 divorce, something like that. And this was right at the time where we had like, all right, we're separating, we're going separate ways. And most of what I was feeling was like relief that that was done. So that's kind of where this, this song has that as like a foundation is that I'm not necessarily sad that my life is going in this direction cuz it's definitely better for both of us, but at the same time, When you go through something like that, that you're not expecting to go through and you're as young as I was you, I, it was definitely like this weird place of loneliness.

A little bit of like desperation for something. You're looking for support, you're looking to know that people have your side and have your back. And so this song is about there was a girl who was kind of the reason that I met my ex-wife. She was like really good friends with her. And we had stayed friends this whole time and after the divorce happened, it was my first time seeing her.

And again, just like coming from a place of vulnerability and not knowing, you know, she was my ex's, like one of her best friends. So not everybody can have a good meeting with that, but to see that she was there and like, very supportive. Yeah. Anyways, it, it just, it left an impression on me of just like she had had a lot of relationship troubles. I had had obviously relationship troubles, so both of us together just felt like we had this connection of like, things are gonna work out one day, even if it's not right now. But because we're super lonely and desperate right now, maybe I like, should we maybe do something?

I don't know. So that's kind of where it came from.

[00:04:01] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Do you wanna say anything else about it or would you like to jump right into singing it? 

[00:04:04] Lennon Vanderdoes: Yeah, I guess I'll, I'll just jump right in. Hopefully that set the stage enough. 

[00:04:09] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah, let's hear it and then we'll, we'll chat more. 

[00:04:11] Lennon Vanderdoes: Okay. Yeah, so I guess. Yeah, to like fully set the stage. This was after I left her house and I just remember feeling this like raw feeling of like happiness that I had friends that had my back and also just like loneliness of like, I don't know what's ahead. So this is what I came up with.

[00:08:39] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Very nice. Thank you. 

So this song, you mentioned that you wrote it about the situation right after the divorce. Or about that time, when did you actually write it?

[00:08:50] Lennon Vanderdoes: Yeah, so February. Of, or 

I guess it was like January, January or February of 2020.

[00:08:57] Jordan Smith Reynolds: So you wrote it at the same time? 

[00:08:59] Lennon Vanderdoes: Yeah, so like it happened to me. I left that girl's house, and again, it's just like the whole point of this is I wanted it to be a juxtaposition. Because this is how I was feeling at the time of like so glad that I had this friend and this friendship, like this platonic understanding. But at the same time I remember leaving and being like, what are these feelings that I have?

Like it was definitely like, I also was attracted to this person all of a sudden, and I was like, why is that? Is it because I've like just gone through a divorce? And I'm lonely and desperate. Or is it like, were we supposed to be together? Probably not, but like both of us are single right now. Maybe we can get through this together until we find the right person.

So that's what the song's about. And I wrote 

it that night when I left her house.

 It was definitely raw. It was like, I remember that night I didn't get a lot of sleep just because of everything I was feeling, so it was definitely raw.

[00:09:59] Jordan Smith Reynolds: You've had this song floating around for a while because now it's 2023 and you've just released it. Have you played this live quite a bit before you ended up recording it?

[00:10:08] Lennon Vanderdoes: This was one of those that I'd pull out every once in a while. I like if I didn't, Know what I was gonna play at a showcase or at a show. If I felt like it fit the mood at some of my other sets, I'd, I'd bring it in. But I don't know, I guess I didn't have a lot of confidence with it just because it's, it's a little bit longer.

And 

I'm not sure if, if I didn't just tell the story that I told you, I'm not sure how much you would pick up on it without that. So for a while I 

kind of just had shelfed it, I started working on an EP this year, and that song just kind of felt like right to include it. Like that felt like a good song that would fit there.

And then when I worked on the production, it became actually one of my more favorite songs because I had, in the recorded version, I had one of my friends, Helen, join me on the vocals and her 

harmonies. 

[00:10:53] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Helen. 

[00:10:54] Lennon Vanderdoes: Helen Morris,

Yeah, Helen morris. who's a so singer songwriter down here. She'd be a great person for you to talk to as well, actually.

She's doing great. She's in Phoenix as well and we had played a lot of shows together and I just sent it her way to see what she could do, and I made it a duet the whole way. So there's two vocal harmonies, the entire song, which I feel like is kind of unique. And then, production is Gavin McMahon in Utah.

Who 

also I'm sure would be great to talk to. Yeah. He's amazing. And he added a production that was exactly what I looking for and I, I felt like it really elevated the song to now where it's, it's one of my favorites for sure. So yeah, it took a while for me to really, and also, it's a tough topic. I mean, you know, you can't really tell what 

this song's about without going into like, yeah, I got divorced really young and this is about that and being lonely and sad, but other people relate to that, you know, 

whether they've 

[00:11:44] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Right. 

And you have 

[00:11:45] Lennon Vanderdoes: yeah. 

[00:11:46] Jordan Smith Reynolds: it's, it's interesting cuz you have to relive it a little bit when you sing it, but you also heal from it probably. 

[00:11:52] Lennon Vanderdoes: Yeah. It's weird cuz I've heard like a lot of my favorite songwriters, like Robin Pecknold from Fleet Foxes comes to mind. They're like, it's crazy to. Pull from pain to write songs. Like, it would be crazy to like make your life hard on purpose so that way you get good songs. Like that's the worst idea 

ever. And I feel that, and I don't wanna do that, like I wanna avoid that. But at the same time, a lot of my favorite songs have come from just naturally painful experiences. So it's one of those things that's like, yeah, I, I try not to do that to myself, but sometimes, sometimes I do have to go back in and like to the old memory wells and try to dig something up.

But this sometimes something painful just happens and you get a good song from it. And I think that's what happened in this case.

[00:12:33] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Right. It is. I imagine his point isn't to avoid those topics to write about, but more. Do not sabotage your life in order to have better 

[00:12:42] Lennon Vanderdoes: music 

Yeah. Don't do that to yourself. And I think with that though, is he's saying, but obviously if you wanna be a songwriter, you need to always come up with songs. So how are you gonna do it if you're not, like, if the best ones come from painful experiences, don't be tempted to like make your life bad just to have good songs. 

Instead, here are some things you can do to write good songs without even having the painful experiences.

But yeah, I haven't, I definitely will sometimes, I don't know, I feel like I have a lot to draw from, even if it's just moving away from like relationship stuff or like being in love stuff. So many songs I've written are, have something to do with that, but now it's moved into definitely a much more.

Existential space. I went through a whole existential crisis. We talked about this 

like two years ago. We touched 

[00:13:26] Jordan Smith Reynolds: The wheel. 

[00:13:27] Lennon Vanderdoes: and so there's so much material you can pull from just questioning your 

existence, I guess.

[00:13:34] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yep. Life is always throwing stuff at you so 

that that makes sense. I know for me actually a lot of it has been writing about family stuff cuz I have two daughters and so my latest whatever plant will grow is more hopeful, I would say, hopefully than some of my past work. Kind of just, to help them have the life that I, I hope they can have, you 

[00:13:56] Lennon Vanderdoes: Yeah. No, I really enjoyed that about about it. I really was like, when I was listening to it the other day, I think I reached out to you cuz it was very moving to me when I've really had a

chance to listen to it. Yeah. 

[00:14:09] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Which is like, as you know, probably one of the, the best things that can happen as a songwriter is when someone reaches out to you and tells you that their song made an impact on their life and, uh, helped you think about something a different way. 

So really appreciate you doing that, that I really does mean the world when that happens. 

[00:14:25] Lennon Vanderdoes: Yeah, for sure. Man. I really, I love, and kinda like you're saying about family, I definitely get the sense of that. From all of your songs, it feels like it's, it's a deeper mature perspective. It's not just about like this one person anymore and just, I don't know, like the deepest of blues. I'm not sure exactly what you were going for with that, but for me it definitely feels like just how, you know, what are the depths that you can count on someone for?

Like how deep does that go, kind of a thing. which obviously probably having a family is more significant than just with one person, so,

[00:14:57] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Thanks. Yeah, that one is definitely about commitment. So that, that's right on the money. I think that yeah, it was right in the pandemic and just felt like I needed to, needed a song that was a commitment, a commitment song. I loved writing that song. 

[00:15:15] Lennon Vanderdoes: that whole EP is awesome, man. Yeah, great work.

[00:15:18] Jordan Smith Reynolds: thanks so much. Yeah. That, that was a long process. 

That ep I had it, I had it finished for a good while too before I released 

it 

[00:15:25] Lennon Vanderdoes: long did you have it finished for? I'm curious.

[00:15:28] Jordan Smith Reynolds: I think I had it done in like September and I released it in March. So it was, it was a long time kind of just prepping, you know, talking to different playlists and all that other stuff and trying to organize stuff 

around 

[00:15:42] Lennon Vanderdoes: you did a lot of that promotion beforehand then?

[00:15:46] Jordan Smith Reynolds: yeah, before releasing it getting everything in place for it. So I do, I was happy that I spent so much time to, to do that, but also I think I could have released it a bit sooner 

and started focusing on newer content, 

[00:15:59] Lennon Vanderdoes: I know it did really well. I mean, would you say that like, that was a huge, that was like a huge point of your career, right? Where things really started to turn around, you started to get attention and like a lot more blog placements, stuff like that. 

[00:16:11] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah, it's, it's true. That did help a ton. I was also playing around with some like social media ad stuff for my music, which I think is, how we met in the first place, 

[00:16:21] Lennon Vanderdoes: yeah, from a, you're one of your older songs. Yeah.

[00:16:23] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah. From comeback to me love, which is wild. Cause I think that campaign I like put on for like two weeks and, you know, spent a few bucks and it just happened to reach you, which is 

awesome. 

Yeah. then we gotta meet through that. But I was playing around with it on anywhere in the world, which is from my EP beforehand, and started to find a, a good pattern for doing social media ad type stuff. And so I, I had that ready to go for the deepest of blues, and I think that was really helpful to have in place before. 

[00:16:54] Lennon Vanderdoes: Like you mean like you've experimented enough where you knew what was gonna work and what you were gonna use once it was

[00:17:01] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Like what kind of, what kind of material you'd use for the ad that works well. Like I had a little lyric video and that seemed to work really well. Static images, things versus video 

and all that kind of 

[00:17:16] Lennon Vanderdoes: I mean if you, if you don't mind, I'm sure everyone will wanna hear like, what did you find works the best?

[00:17:21] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Sure. Yeah. For, for going to Spotify, if your, if your ad is like, you want people to listen on Spotify, I found that lyric video was number one for me. Having just something simple lyric wise for them to look at and be like, oh yeah, this is nice song. And like, go and click in. Static image was second, interestingly enough.

So like a live performance setting, you'd think that would do pretty well. But 

I got a lot less engagement that way. Yeah. 

Like it still would live, engage or live video stuff is really good for engaging with people as opposed to like sending them to a platform to listen to Spotify. If you want to, to gain relationships and, and stuff like that, then that makes sense.

Which I think is the one that you saw too, was, was me playing guitar, singing on that 

[00:18:12] Lennon Vanderdoes: I think it was, I think it was a static or maybe even a lyric, 

video. 

[00:18:15] Jordan Smith Reynolds: static 

too? Okay, 

cool. Well, I'm glad it worked out in that case, that's what I've seen is if you want more social media engagement, it's better for a live performance or something like that, that it looks like a person singing.

When it's static image or lyric, then it's, oh, I'm listening to the song and I like it, and I'll go listen to it more. So

[00:18:36] Lennon Vanderdoes: Really

cool. Yeah. 

[00:18:38] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah.

Also recommend checking out, sending your ads to other countries that you might not be 

[00:18:44] Lennon Vanderdoes: Oh, interesting. I guess my strategy has really been to build up a following in my area and like surrounding areas. So like for me it's Phoenix. The crowds are great in Provo and Salt Lake, 

and some like musicians. I really look up to live up there. And so just building the scene. So I'll, I'll try and target around Phoenix and what I found is, I guess I still don't know.

Like, it seems like I don't choose what does well and what doesn't do well. Like some things like just one video of me playing my other song, goodnight Love. Which is just, I wrote that for my wife, the person I'm married to now. It was amazing. But it's just a video of me playing in front of a candle.

You, you can't see anything. You just see the, the neck of my guitar and my fingers on the 

neck of the guitar and like candlelight, and it's super minimalist. And it's just me singing through a chorus. And for some reason, like the algorithm pushed it already. And I guess that's what I've noticed is like if the algorithm pushes it, then it'll do better on promotions because there's a reason, 

like the algorithm knows what it's doing, right?

Like it knows what people 

like. And so I guess I just don't, so like I push stuff out there and do better when it does better. You push it and it does a lot better as an ad if it isn't doing good. Like I've, I've had the thought of like, oh, well I really want people to like this, so I'm gonna just push it and it'll do good because I'm paying more money.

And that's not it. It doesn't, 

it doesn't work, is what I've found. 

[00:20:09] Jordan Smith Reynolds: that's super good advice. Yeah, that's really solid. I think.

[00:20:13] Lennon Vanderdoes: Yeah, just finding like what's naturally doing well. And Instagram will tell you to do that too. Like, it'll be like, this post is doing like 80% better. Maybe you should use this one. So, I don't 

know. I had a lot of, I've definitely had a lot of people that I've met, you know, kinda like you were saying, the best thing ever right, is people reaching out and loving your song.

And I've, I think I got a lot of different people just from that one video of like, goodnight love. Even to the point of you go up to Utah shows and like, that's how I've met some people now is they heard the song and they came out into the show because of that, which is, yeah, it's the

best ever. And that's because of that Instagram video, which is why I like, I know it's all like, I hate talking about social media and all this because it's not what I want to do. It's not what I want to think about. But that is ultimately how I have. You know, I'm still small enough where when people reach out and our fans, I can be friends with them. I can go hang out with them, go climbing with 

them, and I do that and it's awesome. 

So, yeah, that those relationships have come about because of an Instagram ad.

Crazy.

[00:21:11] Jordan Smith Reynolds: very cool. That's awesome. 

So going back to, to gold real quick, remind me the name of the singer that that performed 

with you? Helen Morris. Okay, great. How did Helen Morris get involved with the, with the project? 

[00:21:26] Lennon Vanderdoes: Yeah, so. We played this showcase in Phoenix and we were kind of like, we had in, in similar circles, so we had knew known of each other. I listened to some of her songs that were already released and she was listening to my stuff. And then we met at this showcase. We were excited to meet and we, I talked about my plans with this EP and I was like, you know what?

I heard her saying, cuz like I had heard all her recorded stuff, but I wanted to see, you know, what, what she was doing live. And I was very impressed with her vocal abilities and her, her performance and her vibe. And I was like, I think this would be like great motivation for me to like actually get working on this.

So I just asked her if she'd be up for, you know, some vocal stuff and she was, and so I I recorded everything. So just recently I've been starting to record all my own stuff. Usually 

I would do, yeah, I would do everything with like either Landon of Sound Bridge Studios in Utah. Or gavin McMahon, who's also up there.

I would just fly to Utah and record everything and just leave it in their hands. But. I just wanted to like, be able to record more stuff. And so I don't, I know nothing about mixing or like any of that. I really don't know much about recording at all. But I learned enough of the basics so I can get really good stems to send out and then they can handle the production.

So that's what I've been doing. So that's, you know, I got all the equipment, like I said when I record, my parents live down the, the road from me. So I just go to their house and I use. Their closet. That's kind of where I just record all the stems. So that's how I did all of the guitars and the vocals for this.

And then I sent it over to Helen. She did her vocal track from her closet too. I think that's where she records. And then we sent it to gavin and he built the production off of that.

[00:23:11] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Amazing. Yeah. That's really cool. And have you noticed the, the quality say I, I haven't really compared the quality of that versus the others for vocals and things, but have you noticed that has stayed pretty consistent?

[00:23:22] Lennon Vanderdoes: I mean, I'd love your thoughts on it because that's definitely something I wanted to ask you about is how you, because a, any song I've ever got, I always have qualms with it, like with the, with the master. Like there's always things where it doesn't sound perfect to me, 

but for other people it's enough for them.

So, yeah, I mean, I guess I. The other experience I had with this is my song in the Morning was recorded in somebody's bedroom who was just producing for the first time. And that's, I mean, these are all like minor successes I guess, but like the Goodnight love did pretty well from a minor perspective, you know, for, you know, for me.

And this song in the Morning, which again was recorded in a bedroom, did better. I mean that Good Night, loved it. Really good. And this one just passed it by a few months and is added to like more playlists and is getting a little bit more engagement. And that was recorded on cheaper mics in a bedroom, just more diy.

So, 

[00:24:14] Jordan Smith Reynolds: that so irritating? 

[00:24:16] Lennon Vanderdoes: in a way it is. It's so interesting. Yeah. Because Gavin 

did notch production on Goodnight Love. And I can hear the, 

the difference in quality, I think for sure, but I'm not sure that, I guess other people don't, and maybe it's just like, You know, is the in the morning just a happier, more cheerful song?

Does it have a better hook? I'm not sure. But then if you hear, so for gold, again, if I'm listening to it, I can hear that like, okay, the vocals are not recorded on the better mics that Gavin surely was using for my voice. And I can hear it. I couldn't tell you like what it is specifically. But because he did such a good job, which again is definitely on.

The people that know what they're doing with mixing, I think plays a huge role in it. I, I think as long as your song is good and you know enough about it to get a good sound, I think it passes the, the test. I'm not sure what other people would think, but in feedback, I haven't had too many people say, this sounds low quality, so

[00:25:11] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah. Interesting. And I think the type of music you're making has a, is a really important piece of that as well. Right? So if you're making indie folk, I think you have, you have some wiggle room, to make it feel a little more rough around the edges. 

[00:25:26] Lennon Vanderdoes: yeah, I, I went for this place of like, everything needs to be perfect. And if you listen to my first recordings, I recorded them with Dave Zimmerman in Provo, who runs the 

Sound Box Studios. It's like probably one of the most expensive studios you can go to. And he's very good at getting just that clean perfect sound.

He'll like melodyne the vocals and get everything where it's perfect and that's great, you know, but it's also kind of boring, you know what I mean? At the end of the day, if everything is too clean and perfect, so, 

[00:25:55] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Right. It's really great for some things, and I think for, for indie folk, maybe not like getting it, that super clean sound is actually maybe a detriment to the, to the 

[00:26:05] Lennon Vanderdoes: And that's what I mean by that cuz I love a good flawless pop production or like any other, any other, production probably it needs to be perfect, but with, with indie folk and obviously some other genres. Yeah, I think that does it, it it does it, it's, it's better if it's more raw. For

[00:26:24] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah, like I think about Sufjan Stevens and Adrienne Lenker. Their recordings are so dirty, 

[00:26:32] Lennon Vanderdoes: Yeah. 

No, but we love it, And it's, you don't think it like when it comes on in the car, cuz I think about this all the time. Like I, I don't know if you ever do this, but I'll play one of my songs and then put other songs next to it to see just how 

it blends and Yeah, for them like, I mean they, they just blend with any song that's playing a Sufjan Stevens song comes on it.

It doesn't feel like, oh, the quality just dropped down here. You know, it, it always seems to fit in. So I guess we're probably harder, but do I really w would love to know like with your songs, cuz I listen to them and I hear flawless production. I hear stuff. That's sounds amazing. I know Cody Francis did a lot of stuff and he's fantastic.

When you hear it, do you hear things where you're like, Ooh, this is, this is wrong, or like, this could be better, or, this doesn't fit the mark for me. What? What are you hearing?

[00:27:20] Jordan Smith Reynolds: I do. I've tried to let go of, of it as we all do, like, you know, once it gets to a certain point. But in the production stage in particular, you know, I'll, I'll be working with whoever's producing to try to get a certain, certain sound if it's missing. I think for me, I'm always super conscious of the vocals cuz that's, you know, my main thing.

Went to school for a long time, studying it and all that stuff. Um, so if the vocals feel off to me, that's my, my biggest qualm. And then I have to just really hone in and, and work on things 

[00:27:54] Lennon Vanderdoes: Yeah.

[00:27:56] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah, I've, I definitely have some things from like the past songs that I know I'm gonna take on to the, to the ones in the 

future. Like I know for instance, that I really like vocal centric songs where the vocals very present, kind of like a Phoebe Bridger's track. So I love Phoebe Bridger's tracks because the vocal is always very forward, but I love the production around it. In fact, there's a, a few artists that are doing that right now, like Lizzie McAlpine and Tiny Habits, and, a few other artists that I really love that sound. There's really interesting indie folk feeling production, but the vocals are also just,

[00:28:30] Lennon Vanderdoes: Yeah, I, I feel like what's also tough is, I dunno if this happens to you, but the emotion that I had when I was writing this song was, was strong, right? 

And I had a lot to pull from and it was from a very raw place and I felt connected to it. But after you've played it for years and years, and after you record it and have to listen to it a million times, I kind of get jaded by it.

So I don't know. Unfortunately how it sounds to other people, because I'm not really feeling anything from it anymore. You know what I mean?

[00:28:58] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah. 

[00:28:59] Lennon Vanderdoes: Like I've always felt

[00:28:59] Jordan Smith Reynolds: I a hundred percent know what you mean. 

[00:29:01] Lennon Vanderdoes: Yeah, 

like it, it, yeah. It's just kind of like, that's kind of what I think the biggest thing we sacrifice as songwriters is we come up with this thing and I write music cuz I like, I wanna write music that I enjoy.

Right. 

That's the biggest thing is like when I'm writing a song, like, would I like this and I do, but then, yeah, you just play it so much that you're kind of sacrificing those good emotions. Like the whole reason why we listen to music, like every song I wrote pretty much, it just becomes more numb to you in a way.

You can still enjoy it and like enjoy, enjoy the structure of it. But it's just those, those initial feelings of like, I don't know, just power and whatever it is when you're writing, it just gets diminished. So it's kind of hard to know, like, oh, like it's kind of surprising when people are like, oh, this really resonates with me.

It's like, really? Like, you're not sick of this one yet.

[00:29:48] Jordan Smith Reynolds: That's so interesting. I hadn't really thought of it as like an act of love to, to work on your music so hard that you don't. Care for it as much anymore and give it to other people to have that experience. But that's a, that's a really fascinating way to look at songwriting I feel that same way. And like without fail, whenever I'm doing a recording session for a song, I finished the recording session, I'm like, Why did I write this? Like, why is this a song? 

I, for whatever reason, I just, I really dislike it After, you know, a really long recording session, almost always, I'm like, what?

Why do we even do music, 

[00:30:25] Lennon Vanderdoes: Yeah, no, 

that, that makes a lot of sense and I feel that, and so I guess what I've learned. Is, you kind of have to, I, this has really helped me with like living in the moment, I guess. When you're writing it, like enjoy it, then kind of a thing is what I've been doing. Like really get down because then you have stories you can tell about it when you're writing it and you know that you've lived through it.

I guess that's what's helped me with it, because otherwise I feel like it can be kind of depressing. Like, you don't even like the songs you're writing, but it's like you do. It's just, I've, I've had it a lot more than you have. Right? So it's like popular songs come on, everybody loves it, and then eventually it just fades in to the back.

And people still go back to it, but it's like, it's not, it didn't have the moment it had. So it's like, same with the songs that we write. It's like we have our own moment with it. We get to to love it and cherish it. And like if we're gonna have it in our soundtrack of our life, that's the time to do it.

And then you release it 

to the world and you know, you've already had a moment with it. So I guess that's the way I think about it.

[00:31:19] Jordan Smith Reynolds: Yeah. 

Thank you so much for being here today, Lennon, where can we find you? 

[00:31:26] Lennon Vanderdoes: So you can find me on like Instagram @lennonvmusic and then Spotify, all the other Spotifys of the worlds like Apple Music. And is iTunes still a thing? Yeah, all those places. I'd love it if you check me out. Got more stuff coming. Thanks so much, Jordan, for having me. It's been so fun to talk with you.