Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of the Song Saloon. Today's episode is with my friend Jeffrey Derus this was a really interesting episode for me because instead of a traditional singer 

songwriter, I'm featuring a choral composer.

I think you'll find there's a lot of crossover. I think the way Jeff talks about commissions for new pieces and publishing are really interesting.

from a songwriting perspective to see kind of the differences between the composing and songwriting worlds and how we might be able to learn from each other. the song we cover today is performed by Choral Arts Initiative. Full disclosure, it's a choir that I've sung with for the past few years.

I'm a little partial to them. I love the music that we make together. It's a choir that exclusively does works by living composers, which I think is really special. this song is the opening song for our recently, uh, Billboard charting album, the tapestry of becoming 

Jeffrey Derus has won, uh, a lot of awards as a composer, including the ACDA Brock Prize for Professional Composers for his piece, I Will Go, and is also a recipient of a Helen Wurlitzer Foundation of New Mexico residency and a Britton Pierce and Holst Foundation residency in UK. I'm excited to introduce you to his work. Enjoy the episode.

[00:01:13] jeffrey derus: Hi, I'm Jeffrey Derus and this is my song, The House of Belonging.

[00:01:25] jordan smith reynolds: Welcome to the song saloon, Jeff. So glad to have you on here. And it's, it's a very special episode because I've covered, you know, quite a few songwriters where I think this is, yeah, we've got about just about 35 songwriters I've covered at this point, but this will be the first time, featuring a choral song and a choral composer.

So thank you so much for coming on the show.

[00:01:47] jeffrey derus: Yeah, I'm excited to be here.

[00:01:48] jordan smith reynolds: can you tell me a bit about how this project got started, the House of Belonging? I know that David Whyte wrote the text I would love to hear about that collaboration and more about the genesis of the song.

[00:02:03] jeffrey derus: Sure. Um, well, I help found an organization called Choral Arts Initiative, which you sing in, and you know about. And we had a big performance coming up, uh, the Western ACDA Conference, and Bran Elliott, the founder and artist director, he really wanted to have Southern Cal or not Southern California, but California composers, um, commissioned so that we can represent our community.

And, he asked me to write, actually, a closer for the program, but I ended up writing an opener, the theme of the whole concert was, becoming, it's all about either becoming something new or becoming something through nature or through self discovery.

And, for a long time, I've loved how David Whyte the poet has captured life and transitions in that we experience. And the text, the house of belonging is actually a great longer text than what I've set, but. The section that I chose really spoke to me at the time of my life that, I was kind of transitioning into a new chapter and this text just really speaks about finding everything you need within yourself and You are your own house of belonging and kind of discovering that or building that.

working with David's team to get the rights was wonderful. they're very supportive of the other artistic art forms, taking the text and making it something new. Brandon enjoyed the text, which was great, the, the commissioner. So, um. Yeah, it was a go right from the get go. I was very lucky to get the rights for that because the text is just so clear with the beautiful message and it, um, really spoke to me.

[00:03:41] jordan smith reynolds: Yes, and I do want to take a second to address the text for this because, I did not do my proper research and did not see the, the full, uh, text for this beforehand. mostly I'm really familiar with the excerpt because I sang the song with the

[00:03:56] jeffrey derus: Yeah,

[00:03:57] jordan smith reynolds: but I'm noticing, that the text you chose is the very end piece of the poem.

[00:04:03] jeffrey derus: it is.

[00:04:03] jordan smith reynolds: So there's, yeah, so there's all these stanzas above it. And I want to take a second to talk about that because, for songwriting, if you say like, there's no house, like the house of belonging, that's only as effective when you have all these words to kind of drip down.

Onto it. Right. Um, so like, what I'm thinking about is this book, writing better lyrics by Pat Pattinson and his whole thing is, you put in these descriptive phrases first, and then it like drips like ink down to the words that you're talking about. So, what I think is really cool is the poem does that really well with like, I'm seeing, I woken this morning in the gold light and, um, candlelight that filled my room and you get all this imagery.

And then a close grain cedar burning round all this, those things. And then that becomes very stark and, uh, meaningful as you get into this bright home, the temple, there's no house like the house of belonging. But what I think is really cool is in the choir version of it, really the music kind of plays like fits in that role.

I feel like the way you've set the harmony kind of sets that, that backdrop for the excerpt that you've chosen. do you agree with that? What are your thoughts?

[00:05:16] jeffrey derus: Yeah, totally. I think the reason I chose the latter portion of the poem Is because it kind of felt like an anthem at the end and I wanted it to be really relatable to the audience that it was being premiered to, which is a lot of choral directors. that kind of goes into marketing, which we'll talk later on about, but I wanted it to be digestible that this was kind of like an anthem.

This was the house of belonging. There was no house, like the house of belonging, which is you and this adult aloneness. In order to capture the vignette that David painted with his words prior to that, I wanted it to feel this atmosphere of joy, but it's joy out of coming from self discovery, and it's this blossoming that happens with the chords, and this kind of vibrancy where, um, It's kind of like turning a diamond and you see different shards of light and different colors.

And I wanted that to kind of be like this like gem that you find within yourself. And so the, the music definitely has to play that role of setting the stage for what the main chunk of text I'm setting. And so I totally agree. Yeah. And I'm glad it comes across like that.

[00:06:29] jordan smith reynolds: Yes. And so for that bright home, like you mentioned, you kind of get this really bright sounding music accompanying it. I noticed, you know, a big chunk of the text that you set is in that very first 30 seconds of the song and you, you laid out and, and like you said, it's anthemic. You get a few of these things returning that this is the bright home.

This is the bright home. can you talk about that a bit? Like how you chose what sections you wanted to repeat and focus on in the composition?

[00:06:57] jeffrey derus: Yeah. Um, I kind of dissected a little bit of the text. and I didn't change any of the words, which that's part of, you know, when you get the rights for it for a text, you need to keep it somewhat original to how the author wrote them or how the poet wrote it. And so repeating text is fine. Um, but I, I chose to kind of create, um, like an ABA, format in a sense.

I wanted it to be this bright section, that had the main message and then the middle section has this, darker but introspective, moment with the adult aloneness that we all experience as we get older. And then going back to that original phrase of, this is the bright home in which I live. And then finishing off the text part of it is just something that you can walk away with like a mantra or a phrase and something I took from it is this is the bright home which I live and that could be in any situation you are the bright home in your life.

You are the safe haven for yourself in any situation. You have all you need and that's something I wanted to kind of drive home when I set the text.

[00:08:03] jordan smith reynolds: there is a real positive message and I feel like the way You've structured it kind of enforces that positivity with, this is the temple, my adult aloneness, and that's the kind of, the darkest it gets 

[00:08:16] jeffrey derus: Mm hmm. 

[00:08:16] jordan smith reynolds: And I belong to that aloneness as I belong to my life.

And it's not saying that aloneness is, is bad necessarily, but. There's that's where the growth happens and everything. Um, and I like how later we get that, uh, return to the first stanza. This is the bright home, which I live through. It has taken me so long to learn to love then straight into there is no house, like the house of belonging.

that just feels really powerful. So,

[00:08:41] jeffrey derus: Well, thank you.

[00:08:42] jordan smith reynolds: yeah, yeah. 

Can we talk about harmonic choices? We 

[00:08:46] jeffrey derus: Sure. 

[00:08:48] jordan smith reynolds: eight parts, typically, what was your thoughts going in harmonically?

[00:08:54] jeffrey derus: Well, um, I've been with the organization in the choir since the beginning. So I have the privilege of knowing what we do well and what we don't, and there's not a lot we don't do well, but, you know, what works with the voices and particularly like, I know every single person in the choir. So it's really cool to see like, oh, the baritones love doing this.

Or like, oh, I love when the sopranos can do this. And so, You know, one of the funny things is that when we first ran through it, two of the sopranos came up to me like, this is so choral arts initiative, this is like so us, we love this so much. And I'm like, well yeah, I've been with the group for a long time, so I guess I know what you guys like to sing.

Um, but beyond just like that kind of lens of, of knowing what works for the ensemble. I love when chords just shimmer, and it doesn't have to be for a long moment, just something that kind of captures your ear of, whoa, what is that? Or, like overtones, and just like making the chord more than it, more than it is, but also not, crowding the chords, and not crowding it with, I guess not nonsense, but just with noise.

And, um, the way that I just chose the progression of things, um, I try to include every single voice part as a melody in a sense, I want everything to be interesting for everyone. And so, however, I can create that progression. And have that vocal interest on the singer's part and on the listener's part. yeah, that's like my goal.

and being a singer, I want to make sure that the singers are invested in every line, every part they sing. So getting back to the chords, Yeah, I just, I really wanted this gem that was kind of just spinning and you get to see this, light progression come through. And then throughout the first, the first, um, system, uh, you really get that kind of, that gem moving back and forth, but then it kind of goes into simpler four part and you can kind of really feel the message and the energy of the piece, which is more finding homage in yourself.

yeah.

[00:10:48] jordan smith reynolds: When you work on this project, are you also working on other things at the same time? Or, what's your composing process like with that?

[00:10:57] jeffrey derus: something I tell commissioners or directors is that I work very fast and, um, I'm very collaborative, and so I will work on a few commissions or projects at the same time, a typical, you know, uh, timeline is you'll be talking to a director, and then they'll say, great, I want you for next season, or I want you for our next concert, and you ask, okay, how long, when is that concert date, and And then you kind of scale back.

So the director has one to two months with the piece before the choir gets to see it. I get done, pretty fast and it's about a month and a half to two months of writing, and then I have a final product. so for me, writing multiple pieces at the same time, isn't a problem because I try to time manage, okay, I can do this, this, this here, here.

And then, um, Allow for time at the end, in a sense, to kind of go back to each piece and see if anything needs special attention. I typically work on one to two or even three pieces at once. And it also kind of gives me, a break out of each world that I'm working in. So I'm not doing the same, the same project every single day and running into walls.

It kind of gives me a break to like, okay, this is a sad piece. Oh, this is a happy piece. I'm changing lenses and views and, and, um, worlds in a sense. But during this project, I was working on this one solely for a while, and then receiving a few more commissions and projects after that, I was able to finish it up.

[00:12:27] jordan smith reynolds: Yeah, that's so interesting. 

I think, from a songwriting standpoint, there's not many cases where It's like commissioned, right? I guess what you could compare that to is maybe sync if you're writing to a tv or a film project Um, and and some songwriters do have quite a bit of a focus on that do you find do you make space to to write free at this point or are you mostly writing to project? When, when someone commissions.

[00:12:53] jeffrey derus: my main goal is commissions and working for a living, but I have larger projects that I consider passion projects in a sense that, well, once I have those set up, um, Like, let's take From Wilderness, for instance, the concert work I did a few years ago with Choral Arts. It was a passion project between me and Brandon, and it was something that we've always wanted to collaborate on, and it was something that got a little halted by COVID, and so I gave extra time to focus on it, but bigger works for me, I want to have the freedom to write what I want to write.

And then hopefully find the right organization or director or choir to collaborate with on a performance, on a recording. So, I don't allow too much time to write smaller pieces, um, freely. I usually save those for later. Working with directors that want me for the next season, or commissions, or those kind of things, or for friends.

So, the smaller things are more ongoing, and that's more assigned, in a sense. Um, here's the theme, here's a text I want you to set. but yeah, I have these projects in the back, on the back burner, in a sense. Um, that are larger, and just take a longer time to develop. So, whenever I can devote time to those, I will focus on those.

[00:14:15] jordan smith reynolds: Do you ever find yourself like just writing down melodies to use in future works or, or like going to a piano without having a clear idea conceptually what you want to work on

[00:14:26] jeffrey derus: totally. Yeah. Yeah. So if it's a commissioned project, it's usually the text comes first. And I sit with the text. I read through it. And then I start to hear. What does this one line want to say musically and and then I kind of assign a voice part to it I'm like, well, I think sopranos can captivate the energy of this line first and then maybe that will bleed into the alto line Maybe it's a duet for a second and then it goes into four part and then I can kind of hear where the text wants to go and The cool thing about writing for choir is you can kind of use the voice Let's say a cappella.

You can use just the quality of the different voice types to either ground a phrase or uplift a phrase and there's just so many different sonorities you can get out of just the human voice. And so, um, With commissioned works, I start with the text, I read through it, I start singing a little bit, I go to the piano, and then once I kind of find, um, that little gem that kind of holds the whole thing together, then I'm like, great, I can break away from the piano and go to my computer.

I do everything on my computer, so I do not, um, use a pencil or paper anymore. It just allows me to be a little more productive on the computer but yeah, that's where I commissioned work. If it's something that I just hear, I usually pull out my phone and I just press the recorder app and I record something, either playing it on the piano or just singing a melody.

And yeah, I have probably like hundreds of little memos of three or four second melodies That I might use on or might might not or might be like that's ugly delete or like that's brilliant. Let's create a piece so yeah, it's very organic but with um, How I try to process either a commission or just collect melodies for myself.

[00:16:12] jordan smith reynolds: and as far as commissions go, do you find that they're usually pretty specific, like I would love to know the ratio of like, Here is the text. We want set. Will you do this piece or do you have a lot more freedom? Like, here is the theme and we want something, which it sounds like the choral arts initiative, uh, House of Belonging was more that way because you were given the word becoming, to work

with. 

[00:16:35] jeffrey derus: The majority are definitely, themed. They're like, well, here's our theme for the concert. We love your music. We love what you do. So, shoot me some texts and let me know what works for you or vice versa. I've only had two commissions where the text was given to me.

And I think sometimes conductors like to give the freedom to the composer to find the text. Um, but it is a challenge sometimes it is a challenge to find texts that is either public domain or you can get the rights, which then turns into what is the monetary breakdown in the end with rights. so it just, it depends.

but I would say majority are themed based. Hey, I have this spring concert. I want it to be about nature. Groundbreaking. Um, so, uh, maybe you can write about flowers or maybe you can write about animals or something. And, but for me, I just try to find a text that speaks something that I want to say, in a sense, about either nature or springtime.

And also find the text that kind of speaks, you know, the way that I think in my head, I guess, about life and about, it's not just about like, oh, that's a great text to set to music. It's like, well, is that what I want to say in a sense? Would I agree with those things? Would I stand by those things? And so, yeah, I think sometimes the directors might want to be like, you handle it, you take care of it and we'll like the music regardless.

Um, but also just freedom. It's just like giving the freedom to the composer. So majority are like that.

[00:18:09] jordan smith reynolds: and that brings up a really interesting point too, is the, the work that goes in collaborative wise with, with the poet, even just getting this episode together, we had to talk to three separate entities, right? To, to get this, uh, podcast approved. and I imagine that's pretty typical when you're doing works with, with other composers.

Can you talk a little bit about that collaborative process and how you contact people that are working, working poets? 

[00:18:35] jeffrey derus: Yeah. So, um, I've worked with, uh, David Whyte and Wendell Berry and, um, a friend of mine, Courtney Prather. And when you know them personally, the process is a lot easier just because they know who you are, they know the quality that you produce. when they don't know you, they sometimes ask questions of like, can you give us a link to your website of your work?

Just so they can kind of see where their text might end up or It's not for like I think it's for a little bit of quality control but just to see if like the text aligns with that art form or that, that person, or even not just the text, just the person in general. But with, um, I worked with David Whyte and he has a great team that represents him and, um, they're very responsive and it was very easy to tell them exactly what the project was and what the mission of that was and working out rights.

And, yeah, I actually had to update them on saying, Hey, you should get David up on ASCAP so that he can get, some money for performances and whatnot. So sometimes we teach each other things, which is really cool. and he, he's a big name. So I just, you know, if I can share anything, it's just cool to collaborate with him.

[00:19:48] jordan smith reynolds: Yeah. That's really cool. could you talk a little bit about your education and composition and how you got into writing music and Oh, also completely separate. Have you ever done text yourself for your own works? So maybe we can get to that second question, but have you done text for your own works before?

Mm-Hmm.

[00:20:07] jeffrey derus: I have not, um, but I have adapted. So a lot of the time, if it's a public domain text, it doesn't perfectly fit what you're musically trying to say or create. You can adapt a text. And so from, from wilderness. almost every single text in there is adapted a little bit, um, just by like spacing or, you know, one word wasn't really coming through with what the exact message I wanted.

And so, um, nothing major. I still want to have the authenticity of what the poet or author or writer wrote. Um, but that's probably the most I will ever go with trying to write, um, My own text. I, I think it's a really cool, um, you know, aspect of writing music is writing your own text. I just think I, I think a little differently and it's hard for me to articulate into words exactly what I'm trying to say and kind of have that same energy throughout the, the text.

Um, you know, if I was a songwriter, maybe I'd have a different upbringing and I'd be able to kind of gel a little more at that. But I think with, um, What I typically do working with ensembles and choirs, the, the structured format of the text already set gives me a lot of freedom to do really cool musical things.

And so for me, it's kind of like a, a toss up in a sense. I'd rather work on the musical side, but, um, yeah,

[00:21:32] jordan smith reynolds: Yeah. To me, it feels kind of like a, like an art song with my classical upbringing, right?

[00:21:37] jeffrey derus: yeah,

[00:21:38] jordan smith reynolds: that was typically always composer, poet. Um, so it does feel, it has a, it does have a different feel to it when it's music and lyrics versus, uh, music and then a poet coming together in

[00:21:51] jeffrey derus: totally. And I think if like, you have a specific musical idea that you want to express and a message you want to express, writing all of it together is like the best option for you. Um, but yeah, when it's typically. And I'm kind of on a timeline in a sense. So if I had to write the text and the music, I'd probably double the amount of time just to make sure, grammar wise or just, the feel, the rhythm of the, of the text is right.

but I also think I might get lost in the idea of like, okay, well, what would this sound musically? So then I would kind of bleed over spacing and ideas from what I want to do musically, instead of what I want to do just as a text, and I think I would just create mud. So, 

[00:22:38] jordan smith reynolds: I've talked to a few producers and they've kind of expressed similar things when they, when they write because, you know, producer writers, when they start writing, they're like, Oh, production. And like, they get stuck in that mode and it's really hard to separate that part of their brain.

[00:22:52] jeffrey derus: totally. I've had the same struggle.

[00:22:55] jordan smith reynolds: Yeah.

[00:22:56] jeffrey derus: But going back to your, um, education question, uh, I went to Cal State Fullerton and I studied voice there, um, music education. So choral conducting. And, uh, for a second I was like, I don't know if I want to be a teacher. I don't know if I want to do that forever.

So I switched to vocal performance for a semester and that was great. But then I was like, nope, don't want to do that. So I went back to choral ed and I do love teaching and I come from a family of teachers. So my mom has taught for over 50 years, every single grade you can think of. She was an AP, she was a principal for 15 years.

And, my sisters are teachers my mom kind of told us when we were young, you know, if you want like a really stable life and you love to work with your community, find what you love and teach it. And so, um, You know, it stuck with my siblings and I, and so my sister's a math teacher, my other sister teaches sixth grade, and I taught choir, and that was kind of like the secure path.

I was like, you know, this is going to set me up for a good future, and I still get to be in my art form and have the freedom to do other things. And when I was in college, um, I had a jaw condition. It's kind of random, but I had a jaw condition called Hopsburg syndrome, and it's just like a, an underbite.

And so I had to have double reconstructive jaw surgery I was wired shut for six weeks. And during that time, I wrote my first choral piece, later that summer, uh, I got about 50 of my friends, and we all sang. Um, I called the group Afternoon Singers, because we learned the piece in an afternoon and recorded it in Main Concert Hall.

And they did a beautiful job, and it was just this transformative experience of like, oh, I want to be writing the music. I want to be the person deciding what literature we're presenting to the world, in a sense. And not from a director's standpoint, but just as a creation. And that kind of really just opened my eyes to what I really wanted to do.

you know, in college, you either go into college thinking like, Okay, I'm going to be a composer. I'm going to do this. And I didn't have that, that lens of it was an option. So I started creating my own opportunities. the next summer I recorded two more pieces that I wrote and it was great.

I had these three recordings and then I submitted

[00:25:08] jordan smith reynolds: that with the afternoon singers

[00:25:09] jeffrey derus: Yeah, same thing with Afternoon Singers. Yeah, my friend Mazze Zimmerman, he was just really kind and was like, I'll direct it and I'm like, cool, let's do this. and then that turned into I submitted two of them for competitions and they won and I was like, oh, okay, cool.

This is going in a positive direction. And then I was picked up at Music Spoke, which is a publishing house for new music, um, and living composers. they just had this great formula for allowing the composer to keep the rights to their music. And they did a great like 60, 40 divide with, um, revenue, which is awesome.

Cause typically it's about like. 2 to 8 percent for the composer. 8 percent is like for those big wigs. So, um, selling out to mainstream publishers is, is a choice you have to know what you're getting into. 

So as a composer, you, Have an option of self publishing, which is wonderful. You keep everything and you find a distributor and music spoke is mainly a distributor, but they also have their own series of publishing and, um, same thing with graphite, which I'm with graphite right now with Jocelyn Hagen and, um.

They're wonderful. It's a great, great organization to be a part of and have my music presented on their website and with their collection of pieces and composers. But mainly there's self publishing and that's a hundred percent yours and you sell on your own website. Then you can go with a distributor, and they give you a way better cut of the profits of your music.

So, typically it's like 60 40 or 70 30, and the 30 percent or 40 percent that goes to the distributor, that is just to, A, keep the operation going, but then it also it pays for the staff there and just whatever they need, the rest of the money goes to you because you did all the work for that piece of music.

And then when you sell out to, um, mainstream publishers, the cut is just very, very decreased on the composer end. So they do a lot of advertising and a lot of pushing of your music and that costs money. And so between to keep their operation going and the advertising and how the deal is broken down, the composer typically loses the rights to their music and you just get a cut of the sales.

So you do get, um, a wider spread and a cast of, sales. So with like a mainstream publisher, you might reach 4, 000 directors, but with a distributor, you might reach 200. 

So it's just a different, a different scale, um, and some people might want to do, like, one or two pieces with a mainstream publisher to get their name out there, and then self publish everything else.

Some people give everything to, um, mainstream publishers, and that's what they want to do. Maybe they have another gig on their, on the side that, you know, sustains them. So it just kind of depends on what your situation is, but, um, I've had the opportunity to publish one or two pieces with mainstream publishers, and I just haven't felt right about it yet.

So I think that might be an option for me later in the future. But, um, I have a pretty big catalog now and pretty good sales. So I want to see how far I can push that before I need to, um, tap into that other stream

[00:28:28] jordan smith reynolds: I'd be really curious to hear because, I mean, the percentage is so vastly different. You'd have to be making quite a bit more in sales for the mainstream to make sense.

[00:28:38] jeffrey derus: for sure,

[00:28:39] jordan smith reynolds: has, yeah. Has that happened, for you or for friends of yours that like the mainstream sales really made sense because they were that sizable.

[00:28:50] jeffrey derus: I would say no, but, um, someone like, you know, going back to my high school days of who is big wigs, um, like Morton Lauridsen. Let's take him for an example. wherever his music is published. That music got everywhere. And so you might see a sizable amount of money coming in. from that, someone like me, probably not.

Um, and it might sell, a piece of mine might sell 40 to 100 copies a year. And if I was only making 2 to 5%, that's gonna be, you know, a meal for me. And, um, but it might draw attention, so the, the, the flip of it is, it might draw attention to my name. And it might draw attention to my other pieces that are self published.

So if someone falls in love with piece A, they might want to look at piece B through Z now. So it just depends on what your angle is with the deal, in a sense. 

The other kind of sad part is that sometimes, not so much anymore since we're in a digital world now, um, but when you sold the rights to your piece, if it doesn't sell well for a few years, they will shelve the piece forever. So they will no longer sell it. they don't want to put energy into it. So then that piece kind of dies. Which is so sad, because, you know, as a composer, you put all this time into creating this piece of art, and then what, it can no longer live? And you can't sell it yourself because you don't own the rights anymore.

So, it's just, um, it's a tricky game, but that doesn't happen too often now because everything can just live online for eternity. So, they're not actually taking up resources for a piece that's dead in their eyes. 

But, the majority of people who have gone with, um, I have some friends who have now wanted to get their rights back, and that is a very hard thing to do.

So, um, I know some people who are in conversations with their publishers that are trying to, you know, get their pieces back. Not because they have died in a sense, but just because maybe they're doing really well and they want to have more of that cut or, they want to have every piece they've ever written in their self publishing name.

So, but that process is so hard because you signed it off and it's done. So

[00:31:07] jordan smith reynolds: Mm hmm.

[00:31:08] jeffrey derus: that's the scary part of it.

[00:31:11] jordan smith reynolds: And also very relatable from a, more like songwriter artist standpoint. Um, I've heard stories about artists. I hear this happened a lot more like the early 2000s to that, like artists. You know, would sign to a label and then just have everything shelved. And it was sometimes done just so a competing label wouldn't pick up that artist.

[00:31:32] jeffrey derus: Oh my gosh. I did not know that.

[00:31:34] jordan smith reynolds: which is just terrible. Yeah. Um, yeah, like you said, just really hard to get out of, can you talk about like the rights? what are the rights that you need to get back? Is it the rights to, to sell the music, um, to perform it? So when you sell your rights, like you don't have that, that ASCAP stream coming in for performances.

[00:31:52] jeffrey derus: so someone else just typically owns it. Um, right now I own 50 percent of the rights to House of Belongings since I wrote the music. David owns 50 percent since he wrote the text, or his, um, His company does. And, it just comes down to who owns it. if I don't own it anymore, I can't reproduce it, I can't sell it, I have no say over it, um, it's gone.

And so I am just someone that contributed to that project, in a sense. But yeah, uh, performing it, uh, you know, I guess if I had a choir, I would purchase the music from that publisher and perform it. But, um, it would not be, yeah, it's just no longer mine, which is kind of weird. It's like selling a child, I think.

[00:32:36] jordan smith reynolds: Yeah, yeah, it feels so strange. I haven't, I've done mostly all self published, uh, work so far. Um, worked with a few like agents for, for sync music and things, but that's more like by placement as opposed to, um, you know, kind of grand scale, uh, selling of rights. And

[00:32:55] jeffrey derus: Yeah, I did, um, I did have a project that I was working on, um, with an up and coming popera, um, like classical pop artist. I wrote three songs with a friend of mine, and, um, one was Like so close to being picked up like it was in her hands and it was gonna happen and then She backed out of her record label deal.

And so it just didn't go anywhere So, I don't know We didn't we didn't get far enough to where I would have to like either Give the song or like give the rights up to that song to that artist if they wanted full control But that was kind of the farthest I've gone in outside of the classical world in the sense of, um, rights and like what would happen if I wrote a piece for this artist and then they wanted it only for themselves.

So that's kind of a funny thing. I've never crossed that world except for, I dipped my toe into it for a second, but the piece is really cool. The song was awesome. My friend Shelly Denton, she did the demo for it and it was killer. And, um, Yeah, it was going to be so cool, but it fell through.

[00:34:01] jordan smith reynolds: Ah, that's rough. 

Yeah, um, and you'd mentioned kind of more of like a, a folk, folk roots for your composition stuff. I'd love to talk about that too. Just, uh, how is it, what, what benefits do you think you've had not going through the education system for composing? And what cons as well? Like what's, what's been good and bad of that situation for you?

[00:34:25] jeffrey derus: Yeah. I think like when I mentioned like folk roots, it's more of like the process of creating music more than the genre in a sense, because I am in the classical world. Um, but I think. There's something about over, over educating in the sense of overloading information and concepts and ideas and theory and thoughts.

I think those are awesome tools. And I do sometimes wish I went back and I said, okay, no, I, when I discovered I wanted to be a composer, I should have switched my major. I should have gotten that experience. I should have worked with a teacher. Um, just so that I have more in my arsenal to use and create with.

But something that I think is so beneficial is that I was never swayed away from my compositional voice. or musical ideas or thoughts. And so I just got to elaborate more and more. And I kind of took my early, uh, commissions and compositions as assignments and like big projects that I'm, I'm really testing.

Can I create a full piece of music that is, um, This is a bad word, but digestible for an audience, but I still get to be really artistic, and the singers enjoy it, and I'm expressing the text, and it's singable, it's relatable, and so I just kind of had a broader scheme of what I wanted my music to be, instead of like Well, it needs to be in sonata form.

Well, it needs to be for the string quartet and it needs to be this, this, and this. And I learned, you know, sometimes I made mistakes like, oh, okay. You know, you know, uh, a choir typically for the game, like, theory wise or, choral practices, a choir can get louder if everyone is getting higher in the register.

You know, so maybe I had a big chord or basses are singing a low E and it's fortissimo. Well, that's not going to work. So I learned certain things as I, as I went along and I do attribute a lot of my, I guess, knowledge or compositional discoveries to choral arts initiative and being a singer in the ensemble.

We do all new music and I see what works and what doesn't. And, you know, for the majority of the time, if it can't work with choral arts. It's probably not gonna work somewhere else. So, um, just having conversations with Brandon as a good friend of mine and, you know, learning from other conductors, what they like, what they don't like.

I kind of did like more investigative research of composing out in the field rather than book work in a classroom and then just I'm lucky enough that I got commission after commission after commission to keep that process moving forward, and it took longer, you know, it took longer to get to where I am today, but I wouldn't change it for any other experience because I never got swayed from what I wanted to say, I never got swayed from what I wanted to create, and, you know, I'm a lifelong learner, and that's kind of a corny phrase, but I want to learn for until the day I die, and, um, If I can learn out in the field in the moment, it's, there's so much meaning behind it than just like, here's an assignment on this form, and make sure you include these instruments, and make sure it sounds pretty, or whatever the assignment is.

I'd rather have it be super practical and super, meaningful and impactful on my career. So, that's kind of where I've, I've come from.

[00:37:37] jordan smith reynolds: what's nice about that too, is you can always choose the project you're working on. Right. So you're always doing something that you're passionate about instead of maybe doing something you don't really care about to fulfill an assignment using your creative energy, which can be confusing.

I feel

[00:37:53] jeffrey derus: Totally. I think also, like, if you're passionate about it, you're gonna remember and embody whatever you learned from it. And I think sometimes in academia, it could be the skill that you fall in love with eventually, but maybe in that assignment, that one moment, that environment you're in, you may just hate it.

You're like, oh, I don't want to do this assignment. I don't want to learn this skill. But then maybe you'll never come back to it because of that. but on the flip side, I'm not, I'm not doubting education or any kind of formal, Training because there's so much value in that and all those skills are just invaluable to have but yeah, I think something that I strive for is to just broaden my my color palette and my toolbox of compositional ideas and skills and As much as I can and so I'm kind of teaching myself as I go

[00:38:44] jordan smith reynolds: Love that. I've had these thoughts about education too. and I think it really just comes down to it. You need to be intentional with your education, right? And, and not just kind of going through the motions and, and pick, and you need to be really choosy about where you're going to study and what it is that you're studying.

if you're going that

[00:39:04] jeffrey derus: Totally. Oh totally you have to And I went to Cal State Fullerton, my mom is a Cal State Fullerton grad, and my sisters went there, but they had a great, they have a great music education program, and so I knew, no matter what, I want to walk away with that degree, in a sense, and I want to walk away with that education, and work with Rob, and work with Chris there, so, I was intentional with that.

But I kind of found composing a little too late in the game. I was too far along. And so, yeah, just, I love that and being super intentional with your education, formal or informal. That's just like super key.

[00:39:40] jordan smith reynolds: Yeah, so you mentioned making, uh, making music more, digestible, but you weren't like super like sure that was the right word, 

[00:39:50] jeffrey derus: Yeah, 

[00:39:51] jordan smith reynolds: with the audience. and I actually just talked with, uh, my friend Mike McClellan for an episode and he was talking about the Maya principle, which is Uh, most advanced yet acceptable.

and that was like used for design of cars and stuff. Yeah. And I thought that was kind of applicable here. and maybe it could be that with coming up from the background you did, you were able to keep the audience in mind a little bit more. Cause I think in an education setting, you can kind of go towards more of the.

Uh, stuffy, like, kind of technique focused, craft as opposed to keeping the heart and the audience alive in it. So that's interesting.

[00:40:31] jeffrey derus: Okay, cool. I love that. It's called the Maya. I love that. I'm going to remember that. but yeah, that's totally way better than digestible. Um, I think like when people think of new music, they're, there's like two aspects, but one or two worlds, but they always think of one more often. And that is that like, what the heck is happening and like, what is going on?

And, um, where there's like 45 players on stage and there's like instruments you've never seen before and no one's keeping time in a sense and it's just this like cloud of creative energy and you're just like, cool, it happened. That was cool. Um, but I, I want to like, I think being a singer myself, I want it to be enjoyable on all ends.

So I, I taught high school choir for about seven years and I want my, my singers to enjoy the music. I want the audience to connect with the music. I want it to be, singable for the singers, enjoyable for them, but I want the message to come super clear to the audience. They're there to learn something through music or experience something through music.

yeah, I think keeping them in mind is, what will lend future directors program your music more because they want to serve a community and they want to serve a message that they're creating. I think really great conductors think of text first. That's something that Brandon Elliott does. he thinks of all the texts first and then he tries to find pieces that have set that text.

and if not, then it's, it's more of a, what composers does he want to work with? And so from like an, an angle of marketing, I want to approach every person involved, every stakeholder. I want to have music that can be relatable and, um, interesting, singable. But then also I want to think of the longevity of that piece.

Like where, where can that go? And, um, what kind of audience. can it reach? And then also, what kind of ensembles can it reach? Is it too advanced where it's only going to be for, you know, the top one percent of ensembles in the country, or is it going to reach 99 percent of community choruses and children choruses and high schools and whatever?

So there's a lot of thought that goes into every piece I write in the sense of how much, um, what is the reach of the piece? And so, that's something I try to hold true to. Um, and then when it comes to the music, I, I think more of the singers and the director and the text. but, but yeah, it's just how far can I reach.

People, people want to hire people, people want to connect with people. So it's just how, how far can I connect with people in a sense?

[00:43:12] jordan smith reynolds: Yeah. 

How would that connect with, um, marketing your music for you? that human connection piece.

[00:43:18] jeffrey derus: you know, as a composer, you don't really get to choose too much, of the time who you work with, you know, if you get five commissions a year, you're probably going to say yes to all five of those, because you're going to want a, the money, uh, be the opportunity to work with a new director and a new ensemble.

I think it's. holding true to who you allow yourself to work with and align with the mission and vision of each of those organizations or ensembles or institutions. And then, um, going from there, just figuring out what the, what the assignment is in a sense, like what is the commission?

What is the theme? Um, you know, if it's a theme that is super relatable, um, if it's about love, I have an upcoming work with, um, the Young New Yorkers Chorus and the theme was love. And, um, Given, uh, just, you know, my life experience in the past year, I didn't want to write a piece that was about this like bubbly, butterflies, rainbows kind of love.

I wanted to something, to write something that was relatable to a different audience, who might be speaking or experiencing love in a different way. And so it aligned perfectly with what I was feeling and what I needed and what the director just loved that I was taking it in a different direction.

and so I think marketing, sorry, I'm kind of going on a tangent, but I think marketing plays into who you work with and what the project is. And then when it's actually physical, like physical copies of the score or a recording on Spotify or anything like that, um, getting a good quality recording. I think as like a solo artist, you can have many chances to Record your own piece or your own song as a composer you get one concert and it's just that is the recording Until someone else picks it up, maybe two years later.

you just you know, you want to align yourself with the best Of the best of what you're offered. And, that kind of dictates a lot of what you can then market with. yeah, part of my, my plan is I, my distributor is graphite and they just have a beautiful collection of composers who are super intentional with their music and, um, who they are as people.

And so I'm just, I feel very lucky to be a part of that crowd and having my music on their website. Great. Kind of puts a stamp on it of, this is quality music, and this is a quality composer. And so that already gives me a little bit of a, an edge with selling my music and getting it out there. So it's not, it's not so much the, the background of connections, but it's, it's what, what you stand for and work for and work with.

And, um, that was a long answer, but 

lots of little nuggets in there. 

[00:46:04] jordan smith reynolds: yes. Yeah, and I wanted to ask, too, with that, so, does publishing, your publishing, do they take most of the work in reaching out to different, places to, to sell your existing music, or do you find that you, like, stay connected through like, maybe, um, ACDA or something, to, to share your music? What, where are the channels for you in, in, uh,

[00:46:27] jeffrey derus: Yeah, um,

[00:46:28] jordan smith reynolds: commissions like your your work that's already done Having ensembles perform that work.

[00:46:35] jeffrey derus: yeah, so the, the biggest money, channel would be commissions, and there's a, a good price tag on creating a new piece of music, which is nice, and then, um, Once that piece is premiered, I publish it on my website, and then I send that to Graphite, and they put it up on their website. And getting people to their website or my website is the goal.

And so doing some social media blasts and just having my music available on different platforms is really key. but yeah, it's really great to have. future purchases of that music. Cause that's just kind of like mailbox income in a sense. And, um, I would say like 80 percent of my composer income is from commissions and then 10 percent or a little less than 10 percent is ongoing purchases of my music and then.

From there, I do work with ensembles through either Zoom or, um, I just had a residency with my friend Colleen over at Winona University. So, um, working with her there and her students. So, yeah, it's just kind of being an entity of your own music and whatever it calls for you to do to work with a workshop with a choir or, you know, Be kind of a social influencer for a moment or a producer for another moment.

Um, just being fully invested and that's something different than I think classical performers and conductors have to do. In a sense, they usually work with certain organizations or ensembles or. Institutions that funnel, their salary or funnel their, their income. So just any, any avenue you can think of.

I try to monetize that in a ethical way and, uh, get my music out there.

[00:48:21] jordan smith reynolds: Yeah, and you do have the unique situation with Choral Arts Initiative. I feel like you mentioned the recording situation being so key as a composer, where we just had this record that the House of Belonging is on, come out, The Tapestry of Becoming, and that is a very rare thing to have a choir Be able to go into a recording studio and do multiple takes to end, like, you know, really break down the songs and get that really clean recording where you don't hear the, and 

[00:48:49] jeffrey derus: Yes, exactly. Or the, or the pencil drop or.

[00:48:53] jordan smith reynolds: yeah.

Um, in a concert setting. So that is, that's a really cool experience. And I imagine does help a lot from a publishing standpoint and getting people to, to, to

[00:49:04] jeffrey derus: It does. I think as a director, when they hear, let's say they go to graphite and they click Jeffrey Derris and they go down to, I will go, that's a piece of mine. And, they click on the recording and they open up the score on their screen. If the first thing they hear is a choir gasping for air into an untuned chord, into a poorly, sung phrase, um, they're going to be like, is that the ensemble?

Is that the music? And most people can realize that that's the first recording of anything probably isn't the best, but, some people take it as, you know, that's the music. And then they like next, I don't want that piece. So it just depends on, who's trying to program it. But a stellar recording is invaluable and it's kind of like a business card.

I was telling Brandon this other day, I was like, when I, Shamelessly plug "From Wilderness" to directors and I give them an album or I give them a score I'm just like you must go listen to this. It's the choir. It's fantastic minus my music, which I think is great But you know, the choir is so fantastic.

You'll enjoy listening to this album it's just the best business card to get people on board and already give you credibility and Want to work with you. So the recording is super important

[00:50:16] jordan smith reynolds: Yes, and makes a way bigger difference than I think people realize, even from a songwriting standpoint. Because, you know, I've entered quite a few songwriting competitions and things, and almost all of them across the board are like, the recording quality doesn't matter, just send in the song, and like, I guarantee it, it matters.

[00:50:34] jeffrey derus: Yeah,

[00:50:35] jordan smith reynolds: Um,

you know, yeah, if you hear it presented in its best form, You're going to have better results.

[00:50:42] jeffrey derus: for sure.

[00:50:43] jordan smith reynolds: if it's at a subconscious level. That's that's just how it works.

[00:50:47] jeffrey derus: I think what it does is it allows for connection with the song to happen. If it's clean and expressive and, um, very artistically. Beautifully presented, then the person listening can have a more of an open ear and heart with it. If, if it's like, if I'm stuck listening to like, Oh, I can hear the guitar kind of clicking.

I don't know what that is. Or I can hear the singer's, you know, breath every single time. And it's so loud. Or like, what's in the background? Is that a dog? Like, you know, just other things, it pulls you out of the world. So it just, it becomes distraction, distracting in a sense.

[00:51:23] jordan smith reynolds: Yes, so recording is important in all worlds, I guess for music This is so great. 

And so for people to check out your music, again, you mentioned graphitepublishing. com. Um, you can also go to Jeff's website, jeffreydarris. com. and we'll have links to that and the song, the house of belonging in the show notes.

Is there any, anything else you'd like to mention about, about your work or, um, to point people to as they listen to this episode?

[00:51:48] jeffrey derus: Yeah, you can also find me on Instagram, just Jeffrey Daris Composer. I post a lot of stuff about working with my, um, my commissioning directors and their ensembles. Um, a lot of my stuff is very meditative. There's a kind of a meditative quality to, uh, my music. And, um, anyone out there that wants to work on something together, I'm looking to kind of spread my wings and see what's out there and different collaborations.

But, um, it's definitely just music that's relatable enjoyable. meditative that's kind of my thing. I love to have some kind of healing or self discovery aspect to my music. yeah, check me out

[00:52:25] jordan smith reynolds: Thank you. Yeah. From wilderness would be a great place for people to start for that. Um, I was able to sing that I didn't, I didn't do the recording with, with y'all, but I did the live performance and that includes, uh, singing bowls and, and cello, so there's, um, some really cool meditative, uh, moments with all that.

So yes, definitely check out the work. Uh, the house of belonging is on the new choral arts initiative album. thank you so much for being here, Jeff.

[00:52:54] jeffrey derus: It was a joy. I really appreciate it.

[00:52:56] jordan smith reynolds: Yes, a lot of fun. All right. I'll see you next time

[00:53:01] jeffrey derus: See you soon.